This is pissing me off....... Part II

[Jaysz28]

Ok, 92 Formula Firebird. 305 TPI 5 spd. Still isn't starting!!!! :pissed:

I've replaced the cap, rotor, wires and even the plugs! Getting fuel (40 psi while cranking), spark is good. I tested the coil and and even swapped it out. I have replaced the ingition module. I've swapped the ECM out, and there are no codes being stored.

Car cranks fine. No kicking, or trying to start. I am seriously wondering if it jumped time. Wouldn't make sense that when I line up the timing marks on the balancer that the rotor lines up with the #1 plug terminal on that cap.....

I am lost and pissed off..... :mad: :mad:

ok, new theories please.......

[james85z28]

did you check the ecm fuse? one time my fuse blew and my car would crank but not start and I noticed my check engine light wouldn't come on with the keys-on engine-off. I haven't followed your situation but I thought I'd throw that out.

[Jaysz28]

yes I did and it is fine......

[Chvywolf]

Have you tried starting it in "set timing" mode? By that i mean pulling the plug on the tan/black wire going to the distributer. Just an idea.

[ April 17, 2002, 19:41: Message edited by: chvywolf ]

[Jaysz28]

Yes, I have, but I can try it again... I am seriously out of ideas!

[WS6 VERT]

What was your base timing at. If it was set to say 10°, then your rotor should not have lined up exactly w/ #1 on the cap, it should have been a little off (about 10° off). Perhaps it did jump a tooth, and therefore is causing the rotor to be 10° off? Just a theory...

[Jaysz28]

just a tooth would cause all this???

its a thought and if I could get the disty loose I would have twisted it around while it is being cranked. Just can't seem to get a wrench on the bolt. Time for me to visit sears tomorrow and try playing with that next....

EDIT: I did move all the plugs back on spot on the cap and nothing seemed to change..... might be a useful tidbit of info.....

[ April 17, 2002, 21:44: Message edited by: Jaysz28 ]

[SportCoupe]

40 psi does not mean you're getting fuel.

[Jaysz28]

How about the plugs smell like gas and are moist?
If someone could tell me a good way to check the injector pulses, I'll do it. Also, what would cause the injectors to not pulse? or be stuck wide open? I already swapped the ECM out. They both work in my Z28 so...... :confused:

BTW, I put the fuel pressure due to people assuming my fuel pump was dead and I was too ignorant to check it first......

[SportCoupe]

I told you in the other thread to get a 6 volt light bulb and attach 2 wires to it and insert into an injector connector. Now crank, the bulb should flash fast and bright.

The ECM does not control the injectors during cranking, the distributor does.

[WS6 VERT]

John, I know what you are getting at, and he said that he already put a module in it. Also, unlike the ones we have seen, his won't start w/ starting fluid. Its definatly a headscratcher, if only it was down here w/ me, I'd have fun smile.gif

[Jaysz28]

Originally posted by Millican:
I told you in the other thread to get a 6 volt light bulb and attach 2 wires to it and insert into an injector connector. Now crank, the bulb should flash fast and bright.

The ECM does not control the injectors during cranking, the distributor does.I would have done this if I could find a 6 volt bulb. I wasn't blowing you off or anything..... I was just asking for another way to do it with stuff I have here. Maybe my neighbor has a spare bulb for his tractor. They run off of a 6 volt system i think.... :confused:

Btripp: thanks for the offer, but if it jumped even just one tooth on the timing chain, I would get something out of the motor. I haven't tried using the starting fluid on the fresh plugs and new wires. The spark is stronger than it was before tho.... I am not used to this at all.....

[ April 17, 2002, 22:13: Message edited by: Jaysz28 ]

[SportCoupe]

You can get a 6 volt bulb anywhere. Wal Mart, K-mart, local auto parts store, ect....

You can use a 12 volt bulb but it will be a weaker flash and you will have to shade it and look close. The 6 volt is nice and bright. smile.gif

[Jaysz28]

I will pick one up tomorrow after I take my placement test tomorrow at school

why is this making me feel dumber and dumber the more I work on it? I feel like I am 16 again and not having a clue about cars....

thats what I get for attending the school of hard knocks I guess.....

[WS6 VERT]

I do this everyday professionaly, and I get cars in that make me feel like a total dumba**. It just goes to show that you can't know everything Get it fixed, take it as a learning experience and move on. :D

[Jaysz28]

you know what is scary is that my gut told me the timing chain jumped.. but I didn't think it would with only 89k on the car you know....

and the way it is going now, that is probably the problem. I will check the timing while it is cranking for giggles before I loosen the disty. Tom and Craig gave me that idea. Plus check the harness. Two birds with one stone if I am careful.

[WS6 VERT]

Dang dude, you've posted so much about your car, you've made it to the "next level" of member status "SE3GO Elite"!!!! :D

[Jaysz28]

Oh good grief! Sad part is this isn't my car! Its the wife's ride! tongue.gif

I thought I was going to catch up to you, but you keep replying to all my posts! :D

[SportCoupe]

164 posts BT! Dang it's only been a week on the new board. What a whore...

[WS6 VERT]

graemlins/hump.gif Did some call for a whore? graemlins/hump.gif

[TennesseeZ]

Bernard, I'm thinking maybe the balancer slipped on itself, throwing the mark off, and it either jumped a tooth or the distributor moved, how would you check that? Pull a valve cover, or is there an easier way?

Sounds like he's got a good spark & all the fuses are good...............

If that's so then it's basically fuel, compression or timing, no?

[ragtop88]

WHat happens when the vats goes?? Doe sit disable the starter circuit or the injector circuit? ANd it is possible for the injectors to fire for the first "couple seconds" and then be disabled? I know when i turned the TTA over without the plugs in it everything else hooked up you could see a mist of fuel come out of the sparl plug hole....getting anything like that while you crank it?

[TennesseeZ]

One more since we're throwin'em out: Maybe an open between the ECM fuse & the ECM?
Wouldn't the ign system still work?

[WS6 VERT]

First thing I would do, is get a noid light, and make sure the injectors are indeed firing, like Millican suggested. When your doing stuff like this, you can't assume. Then I would hook up a scantool and make sure none of my parameters are out of whack.

When the VATS has a failure, it disables the starter and injectors. A noid light, and the fact that it starts could check that.

If there was an open between the fuse and the ECM, the ignition system would still work, the injectors would not. There again, the light bulb (noid light) would tell you that, and so would hooking up a scantool (no communication).

[Jaysz28]

Today I am making a light to test for injector pulse. I am also snagging a timing light to double check the timing. Also going by my buddies shop and borrow his scantool to check parameters. Anything in other than the CST should I be concerned about? I did double check my TPS to make sure it wasn't reading WOT or something wierd like that.

I appreciate you guys throwing the ideas out there. I just need to eliminate some more stuff before we go any further.

BTW, it appears I am a post whore in training... just call me Btripp Jr. tongue.gif Just without the cool answers.... :(

[ April 18, 2002, 13:23: Message edited by: Jaysz28 ]

[Jaysz28]

ok, verified with a noid light that the injectors are pulsing. I am getting spark. So I need to check the timing and maybe squirt some oil down the cylinders in case I washed them out by flooding it before. May not have compression :( :confused: :rolleyes:

are we having fun yet?

I will check the timing tonight when I have someone to crank the motor while i hold the light. if that doesn't provide any clues, then I guess we are just missing compression! :eek:

[Jaysz28]

Well well well.... after messing with the timing light.... looks like I don't have timing. Maybe.
I'm not 100% sure, but we will see. I had to paint the mark on the balancer white so I could see it! LOL I tried moving the wires on the cap back one terminal. Cranked easier. Speaking of cranking... it kicks now. Fights the starter. Which makes me think that the spark is way too retarded. Thats if I know what I am talking about. When I move all the wires back on terminal, it spins alot easier, too advanced I think.... but I can't get the disty clamp loose to play with it.... :mad:

[WS6 VERT]

I don't see you loosing compression overnight, but I guess if it jumped time, your compression may be low. I'd be about ready to snatch the timing cover off. Then you could at least throw a snazzy chrome cover back on. smile.gif

[Jeremey]

Evey chrome cover I have bought always leaked oil. Doesnt the engine kicking back during cranking mean to much advance?