Still has me stumped!!!!

[Jaysz28]

1992 Formula Firebird. 305 TPI 5 spd with 87k

This car will not start. Cranks for days, but does not start. Here is what I've checked so far:

1.) Fuel pressure is at 40 psi with the key on, and while cranking. Plugs are wet. Fuel pressure drops about 8 psi per hour.

2.) I have spark, and verified that it has not jumped time. I have disconnected the EST wire, and still no starting. LIned the timing marks up and pulled the cap and it was pointing at the #1 plug wire. Verified firing order for giggles, it is fine.

3.) Tried using starting fluid to start it with the fuel pump disconnected. Nothing. Not even a backfire up the intake.

4.) Swapped out the computer. Still no change.

5.) Checked for the usual vacuum leaks.

:confused: :confused: :confused:
So now what? I am not getting codes or anything. The last thing that was done to the car was a oil change on monday or tuesday. Car was driving fine then one morning wouldn't start. Just keeps cranking. This is the wife's ride, so I would like to get it running since it is finally nice up this way. Even if it is only for a few days! tongue.gif

[Chvywolf]

Try setting the distributer inbetween # 1 and 8. And wire brush all your plugs. Sounds like they are fouled.

[Jaysz28]

the disty hasn't been moved at all through out this ordeal. Plugs are wet, but not fouled. I am trying to think what would happen overnight that would cause this no start problem

[88WS6TA]

Does the spark seem weak? I am wondering if it could be a weak coil or ignition module.

[WS6 VERT]

If the plugs are getting wet, then either too much fuel is being dumped, or the spark isn't making it. Did we establish that the fuel pressure regulator didn't burst? Check the coil wire. Pull it off and crank the motor. If the coil is up to par, it will arc out to the nearest metal component. Do the same w/ the coil wire attached. If the coil wire is up to par, it will arc out to the nearest metal.

[Jaysz28]

Originally posted by BTripp:
If the plugs are getting wet, then either too much fuel is being dumped, or the spark isn't making it. Did we establish that the fuel pressure regulator didn't burst? I thought the fuel pressure readings would answer that??? :confused:

Originally posted by BTripp:
Check the coil wire. Pull it off and crank the motor. If the coil is up to par, it will arc out to the nearest metal component. Do the same w/ the coil wire attached. If the coil wire is up to par, it will arc out to the nearest metal.I replaced the coil wire for giggles. Disconnected the wire from the coil and it arcs out against the firewall.

Let me know if there is a better way for me to test the fuel pressure regulator.....

[ April 14, 2002, 15:50: Message edited by: Jaysz28 ]

[88WS6TA]

I think we went over the fuel pressure regulator. Look for fuel in the vacuum hose for the regulator.

[WS6 VERT]

Pull the vacuum line off the regulator and try and start the car. If its leaking bad enough to cause a no-start, fuel will shoot out the nipple.

OK, so we got good spark going to the distributer. How about if you pull a plug wire, how far will it arc? I've seen a bad rotor cause a no-start.

[Jaysz28]

no fuel from the regulator. I swapped the accell coil to from my Z28 to the formy and still no change. I know the plugs are wet, so I am going to spend some time pulling the plugs and wiping them down. I am also going to pull the new rotor off my Z and see if that will start.

Thanks for being so patient guys. I am just out of ideas......

[WS6 VERT]

Are you getting good spark to the plug though? Pull a wire off a plug and see how far it will arc.

[Jaysz28]

ok, changed out the rotor, now going to do the same with the cap. still nothing so far. I pulled out the drivers side plugs and wiped them down. They were pretty wet. Still acted like it was going to start with some starting fluid.... but of course it didn't.....

going to go pull all the plugs again and wipe them down. Anything else I should do to them???

they are splitfire platinums that have no more than 10k on them btw.....

Edit: replaced the cap and still no difference...

[ April 14, 2002, 17:34: Message edited by: Jaysz28 ]

[WS6 VERT]

This thing didn't get water in the gas tank did it?

[Jaysz28]

Originally posted by BTripp:
This thing didn't get water in the gas tank did it?not that I know of! It was being driven all this week. Just changed the oil, drove it to the parts store, then parked it for two days. Wife decided to drive it and it wouldn't start.

Is the spark suppose to be white?

[WS6 VERT]

Blue or white, just as long as it isnt orange. Orange is a weak spark. How did you verify it didn't jump time?

[Jaysz28]

Originally posted by BTripp:
Blue or white, just as long as it isnt orange. Orange is a weak spark. How did you verify it didn't jump time?It is a white spark. Someone else told me to replace the module. I will swap it with the one out of my Z tomorrow after I get new plug wires I had ordered. I have all the plugs out so I'm not putting it together to just take it apart again.

To verify that it didn't jump time, I turned the motor over by hand until I lined up the timing marks on the timing chain cover. I then popped the disty cap off and noted where it was pointing too. Which was the #1 plug wire terminal.

Did I miss something?

[AusRs]

just for a giggle take the splitfire plugs out and put standard plugs in
it could just be the plugs

[Jaysz28]

Originally posted by AusRs:
just for a giggle take the splitfire plugs out and put standard plugs in
it could just be the plugsI've been using them for over a year with no problems. I highly doubt the plugs would cause it to just suddenly stop running out of the blue like this.

[WS6 VERT]

You are hereby ordered to keep posting untill its fixed. We WILL get this car back on the road!

[TennesseeZ]

see if you can move the dist by hand, if so turn it counterclockwise a little & try it.
Dist may have worked loose.

[Jaysz28]

I will comply with this order and harrass this board to the fullest extent of my ability!

[Jaysz28]

TennesseeZ: disty is tight. That was one of my thoughts as well......

To those who put their money on the ignition module.... they cost $23 at autozone. Please paypal me the money to turcottejay@hotmail.com cause the old one tested out fine. I did replace it for giggles. So you each owe me $23! tongue.gif

So here is where I stand now. New cap, rotor, ignition module, wires. Coil is good cause I tried it in my Z. I kept the plugs cause I can't find the receipt so I can replace them under warranty. Fuel pressure is at 40 PSI and loses about 8 psi over a 30 minute period. Fuel pressure does not drop while cranking. Timing marks are lined up and the rotor is pointing at the #1 plug wire.

Yes, I think I am officially pissed off now :mad:

[Jeremey]

Just to be sure, leave the cap off and turn the motor over to make sure the rotor turns. Also my Bird doesnt like to start during the cool months. Huge cams and huge carbs and fairly low compression dont like the cold. I have noticed that when the plugs get even damp with fuel it wont start. I usually keep a couple sets around to get it running during the winter. I would try a set of the cheapy bosh plugs Auto-zone sells just to be sure it isnt the plugs.

[Jaysz28]

I did that but thanks for the suggestion. I originally thought it had jumped time.......

I might swap out the plugs tomorrow. Just to see what happens.

[SportCoupe]

I'm going to say it is might be the distributor pick up coil. Got another distributor handy to swap and see?

You say the plugs are wet. Is it gas or oil?

You need to get a 6 volt bulb and put two wires on it. Use this test light on any injector connector while cranking. Doesn't matter which wire gotes where. It should flash rapitly while cranking.

You did the starting fluid thing Don't dis-connect the fuel pump when you do this, keep it connected and it should fire as long as the spark and timing are good like you say.

My bet is you're not getting fuel.

[WS6 VERT]

Originally posted by Jaysz28:
Still acted like it was going to start with some starting fluid.... but of course it didn't.....
Did you notice the plugs were wet before you attempted to start w/ starting fluid, or after?

I'm just trying to establish what we are missing from the equation. I was just wondering if it was something like the injectors not firing, you maybe got the plugs wet from the starting fluid?

Does the engine sound any different while cranking? Are you sure the plugs are wet with gas? Try lighting a wet plug, see if it produces a flame or not, or put a brand new plug in, crank it, and see if you can see what color the fluid is. I'm know I'm pulling straws, but there has to be something wrong! :confused:

[WS6 VERT]

Dang you Millican, you posted that right out from under me... :D

[Jaysz28]

Plugs are wet with gas. I pulled them, wiped them down, then put them back in and tried the starting fluid with the fuel pump on. All the plugs were wet!

If you guys are clutching at straws imagine how I feel! I now know Rob P's pain! ARGH!!!! :mad:

Now someone suggested I use a scantool and see what the temp is. Maybe it is reading ultra cold and dumping extra fuel in. Only problem I see with that theory is that the computer uses a default to start. Its either closed or open loop, but it doesn't go off of the sensors does it? :confused:

I also need to make sure the ECM didn't blow the fuse. Another possibility

Can I use carb cleaner to clean the plugs before I put them back in? They have been out for 2 days now. Just hate to replace them....

[WS6 VERT]

The ECM doesn't have a default system of the Temp sensors. If its unplugged, the ECM reads it as -44°. However, if it is indeed bad, I havn't seen one cause a "no-start". Usually it will start, but run pig rich. However a scantool would help.

Did we decide there were no codes?

[ April 16, 2002, 07:06: Message edited by: BTripp ]

[TennesseeZ]

OK, lets do 1st things first. Make sure the plugs are firing by removing them and grounding the body to the engime, crank the engine, and verify that the plug fires. Do this for each plug, each cylinder. Once you verify there's a good blue or white spark at each cylinder,and the plugs are actually firing, we'll go from there. Assume nothing, test everything.

[Jaysz28]

I did test clyinders #1, 7, 2 and 4 cause they were the easist to get too. I screwed up the firing order once and had it running on those 4 cylinders because of it.

There are no codes in the computer. I have swapped computers with no change. The motor has sat with no plugs in it for about 48 hrs now. Guess it is time to reassemble it and see what happens....